Did y'all see Thursday's Chronicle?

[Moonpie]

Sports/Outdoor section. Large article on flounder decline.

Don't mean to start a flame war but maybe gigging is causing too much harvest?

[Milkjug]

I think if you stay under the limits and gig only what you can eat or give to people close to you (in moderation) it is OK.

There are plenty of times I have felt like gigging but don't because I have a few in the fridge.

IMO the real culprits are, in this order....

1) Habitat loss. Less wetlands means less places for baby flounder to grow.

2) Commercial fishing. I saw 3 trawlers within a quarter mile dragging the GSC earlier this week. I'll bet it wasn't shrimp they were getting. Commercial gigging boats taking 50 a night can't help either.

3) Poaching. Man, some of these people must never work. Once the fronts start hitting I see tons of people, mainly certain ethnic groups, out bank fishing all day. I've talked to them and they will tell you about catching over 60 fish in a day. I've never seen them throw back ANY, regardless of size. TPWD needs to step up their warden coverage.

Flame on :D

[FlatoutFishin]

Sports/Outdoor section. Large article on flounder decline.

Don't mean to start a flame war but maybe gigging is causing too much harvest?

No way...I used to work a rig in Dickenson Bay. We had a day seine or what ever you call it. It was all legal and I helped drag it about 3 times on our crew boat. After seeing how many juvey flounder I got, more than shrimp. I said no more. It was like 5 to 1. I'm not a mathemathics wizard but shrimping does far worse than me and you poking one here and there. Now I really don't have aproblem with 10 on the catch side and 5 on the stab, but that's just me.

[WestEndAngler]

All valid points however if they make flounder a protected game fish then more than likely they will outlaw gigging...

It sucks because the commercial shrimpers get to ruin it for everyone else.

I go gigging often but never gig or excessively fill up stringer. In fact I've never harvested a limit of flounder...

[JT]

Ive changed my ideas over the past couple of years on gigging.
Heres the way I feel, to-wit:

1. So long as its me or a couple of my friends doing the gigging and they bring the cold beer, its ok.


2. Nobody else should be able to.

[caz]

TPWD needs to step up their warden coverage


.

[WestEndAngler]

Its the anglers responsibility to call Operation Game Thief to report crimes such as over harvesting... Take a photo of the person or boat w/ TX Numbers and call it in ASAP!

1-800-792-4263

[WestEndAngler]

Ive changed my ideas over the past couple of years on gigging.
Heres the way I feel, to-wit:

1. So long as its me or a couple of my friends doing the gigging and they bring the cold beer, its ok.


2. Nobody else should be able to.


LOL! Well just wait 1 week and we'll round up some flounder for a good cause!

[aqua pimp]

Flounder should have been made game status 20 years ago in my opinion. But with the Flounder populations way down I think thats fixing to change. In the last 5 years I have seen my catches go way down on Flounder. Years ago it was nothing to catch 5 or 6 Flounder while out Trout fishing, this was kinda of a bonus for us. Now, we are sometime lucky to see one. A few more during the spring and Fall run. Something needs to be done.
I know the bycatch from shrimpers could be the biggest reason for the numbers going way down, but, I also feel like gigging has taken a big toll over the years aswell. To me, you put 3 or 4 Flounder gigging boats in one small bay systen like Chocolate or Christmas Bay and you can basically cover every bit of the shoreline in one night. Thats alot of Flounder!
I don't want to see Flounder gigging banned because I myself still enjoy it aswell. Though I might do it 3 to 4 times a year by foot.
In my opinion I think commercial gigging should be done away with and maybe start out with smaller limits for recreational giggers.
I think we all agree something needs to be done to save our Flounder. Its going to be a tough decision by TP&W whatever they decide, but something needs to be done.

This is a touchy subject and has started a few wars on other fishing web sites. Again these are only my opinions.

AQUA PIMP

[WestEndAngler]

I hear yah on the gigging boats... I've never gigged from a boat it can be fun I'm sure but as you said your covering a lot of ground. I think that's why I like walking into a spot. If there are none there its oh well lets go back home and try under the lights for trout...

Anything in moderation is a good thing...

[FlatoutFishin]

Flounder should have been made game status 20 years ago in my opinion. But with the Flounder populations way down I think thats fixing to change. In the last 5 years I have seen my catches go way down on Flounder. Years ago it was nothing to catch 5 or 6 Flounder while out Trout fishing, this was kinda of a bonus for us. Now, we are sometime lucky to see one. A few more during the spring and Fall run. Something needs to be done.
I know the bycatch from shrimpers could be the biggest reason for the numbers going way down, but, I also feel like gigging has taken a big toll over the years aswell. To me, you put 3 or 4 Flounder gigging boats in one small bay systen like Chocolate or Christmas Bay and you can basically cover every bit of the shoreline in one night. Thats alot of Flounder!
I don't want to see Flounder gigging banned because I myself still enjoy it aswell. Though I might do it 3 to 4 times a year by foot.
In my opinion I think commercial gigging should be done away with and maybe start out with smaller limits for recreational giggers.
I think we all agree something needs to be done to save our Flounder. Its going to be a tough decision by TP&W whatever they decide, but something needs to be done.

This is a touchy subject and has started a few wars on other fishing web sites. Again these are only my opinions.

AQUA PIMP

I agree with everything your saying, I'm thinking limited boat gigging only during Summer months and dead of Winter,with lower gigging limits. I personally, don't think the rec fisherman is doing anything to hurt the population....I know I'm not!

[WestEndAngler]

I know I'm not and I'm a Rec Gigger... I don't get in a boat and target them and not taking anything away from them either cause I know I wanna try it from a boat... The key is taking a one man limit for 2 guys... I'm sorry but after the 10th flounder I would get tired of fileting or gutting. Keep what you need and let the rest swim away! :D Besides... 5 Flounder will last an individual for awhile... That's a month worth at least assuming you have Flounder once a week or okay maybe twice and your still 2-3 weeks in. I just cringe at those that don't vacum seal their catch especially when they leave them in the freezer for a year! :mad:

[FlatoutFishin]

Yeah, exactly. When I said rec fisherman, I didn't mean a gigger, just rod and reel. Just to clarify.:)

[WestEndAngler]

I know what you meant :D

[Milkjug]

It's kind of hypocritical, but I think gigging should be allowed, but only by foot.

Boats cover so much more water, including the deep wade-inaccessable mud that is the majority of the bay shoreline.

Giggers can only get the fraction of flounder in knee-deep or less water anyways, so I don't think it's too big of a deal.

I wouldn't mind a 5 fish limit, an increased minimum size, or a slot (get some of those small males out, and keep the big sows).

Not sure what I feel about a closed season...

Did ya'll hear about how they are having meetings to discuss changing the regs? Anyone going?

November 12, 2008 — Dickinson, Texas — Public Meeting - Flounder Regulations — The Texas Parks and Wildlife Department Coastal Fisheries Division hosts this public scoping meeting seeking input regarding potential changes to existing flounder regulations or strategies for managing the fishery. Input will be utilized in preparation of the Statewide Hunting and Fishing Regulation packet which will be proposed at the TPW Commission meeting in January 2009. Staff will present the most recent data trends regarding the flounder fishery. Held at the TPWD Dickinson Marine Lab, 1502 Pine Street (FM 517 East) at 6 p.m. For more information, contact Tonya Wiley at tonya.wiley@tpwd.state.tx.us or (281) 534-0131 or Art Morris at art.morris@tpwd.state.tx.us or (361) 825-3356. [Public Comment] [Events at the Same Site] [Events in the Same Region]

[WestEndAngler]

November 12, 2008 — Dickinson, Texas — Public Meeting - Flounder Regulations — The Texas Parks and Wildlife Department Coastal Fisheries Division hosts this public scoping meeting seeking input regarding potential changes to existing flounder regulations or strategies for managing the fishery. Input will be utilized in preparation of the Statewide Hunting and Fishing Regulation packet which will be proposed at the TPW Commission meeting in January 2009. Staff will present the most recent data trends regarding the flounder fishery. Held at the TPWD Dickinson Marine Lab, 1502 Pine Street (FM 517 East) at 6 p.m. For more information, contact Tonya Wiley at tonya.wiley@tpwd.state.tx.us or (281) 534-0131 or Art Morris at art.morris@tpwd.state.tx.us or (361) 825-3356. [Public Comment] [Events at the Same Site] [Events in the Same Region]

I think we (the club) should try and make it to this event...

Any thoughts??? Free T-Shirts for those that want to come and have there voices heard... Otherwise don't complain when they stop us from gigging or place game fish status on Flounder!!!

[Muddskipper]

Flounder population has dropped, and without out pointing fingures.......it is a problem that effects all of us....and generations to come

That's the reason you have Chester Moore on a soap box saying lets get together and make a difference......

There are numerous events that invlove the public bringing in live flounder for the TWPD restocking program.....

Sabine Lake is this weekend, and next weekend we have the Galveston Bay event at Lutes Marine in Chocolate....

West End Forum has a bunch of guy who have committed to helping out....

So, don't be the guy talking about how many YOU used to catch, instead, be the fisherman who steps up and has a hand in bringing back the flounder population.

Special Thanks goes out to Coe our main man here on this site, and Capt. Greg Francis aka: Aqua Pimp.....for there help so far...

Capt Greg has donated a fishing trip as a prize

and

Coe has allowed us a forum that cares about this great program.

[kenny]

When we gigged with gas lanterns on foot the impact was probably not as bad, of course there was more habitat and more flounder.
Now a lot of people have flounder boats, many tricked out with air motors and gig every night that conditions allow. There are quite a few here in Jamaica Beach.
It definitely has put a dent in the rod and reel catches here.

[aqua pimp]

Here is an interesting read I found on the Flounder.


ADVERTISEMENT
TPW's attention turns to flounder
Numbers down by half since the '80s
By David Sikes (Contact)
Wednesday, November 5, 2008

Fisheries management in Texas generally follows an established pattern.

When Texas Parks & Wildlife biologists detect a sustained downward trend -- not a single-year dip -- in a particular population of fish, this triggers an alert to regulators. The next step usually is to check and double check the data.

If the trend proves valid, then fisheries managers examine a list of factors that might explain the drop. Identifying a cause is the first step toward finding a solution. Tests are conducted in an attempt to isolate the most likely reason for the decline.

For example, in the case of falling speckled trout numbers in the Lower Laguna Madre, biologists discovered that other fish species in the region were not declining. In fact, other species were thriving. This all but eliminated causes such as poor water quality, which would have negatively affected other fishes.

Actually, the population of juvenile speckled trout were not involved in the downward trend either. And spawning success was good. Something was happening after the fish matured.

Indeed, the depletion was isolated and involved only larger trout. There was no big-trout disease to blame. This left a single reasonable answer. Anglers must be removing these fish faster than nature could replace them.

And so department officials proposed to reduce the harvest by lowering the daily bag from 10 trout to five. A vocal group of Lower Laguna Madre anglers, guides and business owners in favor of this solution helped cultivate confidence within the department that this solution would fly.

Combine this social acceptance with solid numbers, and by the time TPW Commissioners voted on the issue they were convinced it was the best attempt at a solution. It's too soon to test their wisdom, though some improvement has been seen.

Now the collective attention of the state's Coastal Fisheries biologists has turned to flounder.

Based on 30 years of bag seines, gillnet and trawl surveys, angler interviews and boat ramp counts, flounder numbers statewide (except for Sabine Lake) have dropped to about half the population level we enjoyed during the 1980s. This should be no surprise to Coastal Bend anglers. It gets worse the farther south you go.

The most restrictive proposal involves a three month flounder closure. If this passes, then no commercial or recreational harvesting would be allowed during the fall-winter spawning season. Of course, lowering the bag limit or raising the minimum length also could be part of a management proposal.

But these have been tried.

There was a time when commercial giggers could harvest as many as they wanted. Now they can take 60 flounder per night. But the flounder decline continued.

There was a time when bay shrimpers were blamed for killing too many flounder in their nets. Now they must use bycatch reduction devices. And they may keep only 10 legal size flounder per day. Most notably, the bay shrimping effort has been reduced by more than 90 percent since 1994. Most of this reduction of the fleet has occurred within the past several years.

And yet the state flounder population has not rebounded.

There was a time when the minimum length on flounder was 12 inches. Now the commercial and recreation minimum length is 14 inches statewide. By the way, this means that almost all harvested flounder are females.

The bag limit on flounder once was 20. Now it's 10.

And just a couple years ago, recreational giggers could fish before and after midnight and legally keep 20 fish. We've since closed this double-dipping loophole.

A three-month closure from October through December would double the flounder population within four years, according to the department's computer models. A one month November closure would result in a 54 percent increase in population after four years. An October-November closure would boost the population by 84 percent, according to the model.

Regarding any reduction in the daily bag or length, I'm told the recreational daily quota would have to be reduced to say two fish for this measure to do much good, according to Mark Fisher, science director for the Coastal Fisheries Division.

So why is it that we're catching more flounder this year compared with the recent past?

TPW biologists say the rise in harvest success was predictable and is not expected to last. They've seen this before.

We know the spawning success for flounder rises during cooler winters. We can see this in population graphs. There is a distinct bulge in the year class of flounder following each cold winter.

Two years ago, the winter of 2006-07 was colder than usual. Flounder that were born that season have reached about 15 or 16 inches by now. And so we're catching more legal fish. Biologists don't know why this occurs.

Conversely, mild winters also affect the flounder population. Warmer bays limit spawning success in flounder. It's important to note that flounder, comparatively speaking, are not very prolific breeders to start with. Mild winters also result in greater predation. Populations of sub-tropical species such as mangrove snapper, grouper and snook benefit from our mild winters and all predators become more active in warmer water. They all prey on small flounder.

What would you do?

If you'd like to address the flounder issue, then please attend one of the meetings I've listed with this column, call or write.

TPW Public Meetings

Coastal Fisheries biologists will reveal their flounder data and seek input on management strategies. All meetings begin at 6 p.m. If you can't attend a meeting, direct your comments to: Art Morris at 825-3356; art.morris@tpwd.state.tx.us

Tonya Wiley at (281) 534-0131; tonya.wiley@tpwd.state.tx.us

Nov. 18

Calhoun County Extension Service Auditorium

Nov. 19

Aransas County District Courtroom, 301 North Live Oak St., Rockport

Nov. 20

Port Isabel High School Lecture Hall

David Sikes' Outdoors column runs Thursday and Sunday. Contact David at 886-3616 or sikesd@caller.com.

[Moonpie]

Isn't there a meeting on Wednesday(12th) in Dickinson?

November 12, 2008
TPWD Dickinson Marine Lab
1502 FM 517 East (Pine Drive)
Dickinson, TX

I want to go.

need directions please. (from I45)

[aqua pimp]

Yes at 6pm in Dickinson. As of right now I am planning on attending. This should be very interesting.

AQUA PIMP

[aqua pimp]

if comming from Galveston take a right on 517 towards Dickinson. Its down on the right about a 1/4 mile or so. You can't miss it.

AQUA PIMP

[WestEndAngler]

AP- I will do my best to be in attendance... I will be trying to get off work early and make the run from Downtown to the meeting.

[aqua pimp]

I'll give you a shout on this Wednesday Coe. Moonpie is gonna try and make it too.

AQUA PIMP

[WestEndAngler]

just spoke to yan he is going to try and make it too

[Moonpie]

I plan on being there.

Look for the guy in a Moonpie t-shirt! :rofl:

[WestEndAngler]

:rofl: What does that look like :rofl:

[Moonpie]

http://i37.tinypic.com/3326mo7.jpg

Big, strong, handsome guy wearing this.

Bwahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

[nokatchin]

Scarey,very scarey
NK

[aqua pimp]

You got another one I see!!!!! The last one went flying out of the Black Jack along with JTs cooler LOL. My bad!

AQUA PIMP

[WestEndAngler]

Ouch... I'm assuming you turned around for the beer :D

[aqua pimp]

After all the sheet I lost/almost lost that day I wasn't turning around for nothing LOL. Lets see, I lost 2 drift socks while drifting, a cooler, a moonpie t-shirt, and d@mn near lost a Black Jack LOL. Note to self, never trust a power pole again while doing a marothon wade :eek:. Nothing like see your bote starting to drift away on a cold winter day with about an hour left of day light LOL.

AQUA PIMP

[WestEndAngler]

Oh lord! :D Remember to invest in remote trolling motor... Here boy!! :D

[Moonpie]

After all the sheet I lost/almost lost that day I wasn't turning around for nothing LOL. Lets see, I lost 2 drift socks while drifting, a cooler, a moonpie t-shirt, and d@mn near lost a Black Jack LOL. Note to self, never trust a power pole again while doing a marothon wade . Nothing like see your bote starting to drift away on a cold winter day with about an hour left of day light LOL.

Stay out of that cheap wine and things like this wouldn't happen. :eek:

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[JT]

I remember that day; getting a call from a huffing and puffing Aqua Pimp power wading to catch up to my bote asking me to find somebody with a bote to come get him and the BJ just in case!

And, when I was cleaning out my garage and house after IKE, I found yet another one of those gross "moonpie t-shirts" that was left, so not all were lost @ sea.

I disposed of it the best way I knew.

[WestEndAngler]

:rofl:

[djdiggydiggy]

Dunno if I can make the trip to the meeting, but if I can skip class and go fishin' in the mornin', you bet I'll be there with a few buddies too.

[2112]

I will be there with the war unit.

[WestEndAngler]

I would pay extra ontop of my license for a permit to be able to walk and gig flounder... with certain months being off limits if thats what they so choose... the heck with banning it permanetly... your taking away a time honored tradition passed down from generation to generation...

[Moonpie]

Actually a "tag" for flounder gigging is a good idea!
No gigging unless you have one. Sort of like a saltwater "tag".

See y'all at the meeting. Heading over that way now.

[WestEndAngler]

Let me know how it goes... I was not able to make it... Client called and needed to have a meeting... I am going to draft a letter and anyone that wants to digitally sign it I'll include your name etc and on behalf of the club we'll submit one together.

Yall give me a shout later tonight and let me know how it went I'm PM'ing those that said they might go...

[2112]

My take from the scope is its going to be either a reduced bag or an increase in the minimum length.

If push really comes to shove then I support a mandantory across the board Flounder permit. All funds go directly to the Flounder re-stocking/hatchery and compliance enforcement.

If I had my way I would choose the species to become a game fish with the exception to be also taken by gig.

With the so called facts presented beforth at the scope, there is no doubt, commercial and anglers take way more flatties than the rec gigger.

My ride, so don't let me become a future outlaw.
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w231/BERTFLORES/HURRICANEIKE002.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w231/BERTFLORES/HURRICANEIKE012.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w231/BERTFLORES/HURRICANEIKE011.jpg

[Moonpie]

First they gave a presentation of flounder information(biology, harvest, population numbers, overall decline, etc) then opened the floor for recommendations from the audience on what to do.
Many opinions expressed. Some okay, a couple were good(IMO).
Giggers seemed the majority of the audience.
I'd say roughly 40 people were there.
Basically they told us a number of issues are affecting flounder.
The two I remember were:
1.) fishing pressure
2.) water temps- warmer water causes poor reproduction.
Pressure can be managed somewhat by regulations.
Water temp can't do much about.
I did ask the hatchery rep how the flounder breeding is progressing. At this time they are close to fiquring it out but have only reproduced on a tiny scale.
Money for new hatchery is a problem. Will be several years before re-stocking will be viable.
Audience was definitely pro gigging.
Got the impression gigging won't be touched.
I did get the impression that minimum size will be increased to 16inch. This is the age that allows the fish to reproduce once or twice before being harvested. They had some data/numbers that showed this would be helpful.
Possiblity limits may be reduced. There was some discussion this would be a last resort because they would have to cut to 1 or 2 fish limit to see any improvement.
Possiblity there might be a "closed season" or certain geographical areas closed during fall(peak) run.
The idea of a "flounder tag" was mentioned. A few voiced the opinion they were in favor of this. No one spoke against it.
All the data they presented showed a marked decline in flounder populations in all areas of the Texas coast. Kind of scary.
This is very early in the regulation re-write process but the rules ARE gonna get changed.

[007]

Thanks for the info Moonpie. I do my part for conservation by releasing everything I catch. EVERYTHING.

[WestEndAngler]

Thanks for the info Moon... Glad yall were able to make it... I got a hold of AP around 5:00 and was just getting out of a meeting no way I'd make it down there in time. I'm glad we were well represented!

Thanks guys!